Has anyone used / can this be used with a spindle? Is it even worth considering?
I can advise you on this issue as much as possible. From what I have seen I would not recommend it. Itâs not that it wonât work, I actually believe it will however it will increase runout for sure. Itâs really impossible that it wonât. Even if it is machined to the tightest tolerances there is no way itâs going to be as precise as the stock ER collets and nut. Secondly there is no way it secures bits as securely as the stock ER collets and nuts. The ER system is designed to collapse evenly 360° around the shaft of the bit. Those chucks pinch around the bit similar to a trim router.
Thatâs just my opinion but I think the time it saves isnât worth the loss of accuracy and stability. If that design were superior then spindle manufacturers would be using a similar design.
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Perfect! Thank you⌠just what information I was looking forâŚ
I freely admit I have never seen one in the flesh either. Like many hobbyists, I want the best solutions that will not empty my wallet nor upset the delicately balanced machinery by introducing errors in my tool holding, workpiece holding or toolpath following. I had a look at their marketing blurb and the first red flag (for me) was the fact that on a spindle with a collet nut, you have to add the depth of the MC⌠which is an automatic loss of Z axis height to the amount of the MC height. Z height is initially expensive to purchase and losing any Z height would be a deal breaker for me.
In the case of a spindle (rather than a trim router) it is likely that runout will derive from the collet. In the ER system, the collet nut holds the collet in the collet taper and incorrect assembly will show runout but the runout (TIR) is usually a value that is ascribed to the collet rather than the collet nut. I cannot speak to industrial machinery because I have no knowledge of those systems. I suspect that the MuscleChuck could not be used in a commercial quality machine.
I have just purchased the REGO-FIX ER20 system for my forthcoming spindle following a lengthy discussion with a REGO-FIX engineer. You will see an ER Collet nut (clamping nut) on pp 111 ~ 115 and they have no specified run out despite providing a shopping list of dimensions. Page 163 ~ 164 gives the clamping torque for different cutter sizes at each ER size in imperial and SI units. No mention of TIR here either.
http://www.brunnermachine.co.uk/pdfs/RFix_ER_Catalogue.pdf
I have also purchased the 40 ~ 200 Nm torque wrench and the ultra precision ER collets. Using the torque wrench and clamping nut system, the stated TIR of the UP collets is 5Îźm (0.0002"). That total indicated runout is derived from using the complete system designed by the originators of the ER system and using their numbers, tools and methods, I should be able to keep the TIR down to the stated and expected levels. I note that the REGO-FIX collets are compliant with the standards laid down by DIN 6499-B & ISO 15488.
This is an unsupported comment. I found no reference to this parameter in the technology page on the website of MuscleChuck. Additionally, if REGO-FIX cannot providing a tool holding system with a TIR of less than 5Îźm (and they invented this form of toolholding in 1972) it is unlikely that Musclechuck have been able to produce a system of toolholding with zero runout. Any thoughtful engineer would want to see the numbers as laid out in the REGO-FIX catalogue. I cannot find any technical data numbers on the MuscleChuck site.
Going back to the MuscleChuck technology page⌠There is no mention of the DIN or ISO compliance certifications. There is no actual construction data or technical drawings. Asking people seeking information to look at reviews is not ideal for technical products. Without knowing the credentials of the person reviewing a piece of technology, it is difficult to have any confidence in the reviewer. I attempted to look at the reviews but all I could access was a few positive testimonials⌠big red flag. Names like âWoodratâ, âFine Woodworkingâ âThe Woodworkerâ do not inspire confidence.
When I first got a Makita trim router, it looked attractive to buy a collet adapter that would reduce the cost of collet ownership. Many much more knowledgeable users counselled against that pathway. They told me that collets are consumable items and that adding something that was never intended by the original designer could cause severe problems if it let go during operation. After that I purchased a set of precision collets and took care of them.
It seems to me that the MuscleChuck item is a measure to save something (either time or money) and in both cases I see no actual evidence that this is possible or even worthwhile. The lack of real world hard data is shouting out loud that all we see on the technology pages is marketing puff and it is not supported.
I have no doubt that some people will be more than happy with the item, I also have no doubt that it is driving your machinery to an edge that may not be safe. When I talked to an engineer at REGO-FIX, we discussed my speed range, my maximum spindle speed, maximum cutter size, minimum cutter size, materials to be cut, cooling and the total tolerance accuracy desirable. MuscleChuck are not attempting to match that ~ gathered by reading their own marketing pages.
My suggestion to you is read a little more and inform yourself with mechanical engineering factual information. I would hate to learn that you had been injured by one of these additions to your CNC machining spindle.
How is my expression of concern for your safety an egotitistical attack?
You have chosen to denigrate me personally rather than addressing the points I raised.
You made several statements that are unsupported by evidence. You then requested the following:
I was wondering where your own elaboration and sources were for the following statement:
Can you provide the evidence for this statement? I ask because I have shown you that after 52 years of manufacturing in this specific area, REGO-FIX can guarantee the users of their ultra precision system, 2 ten thousandths of an inch TIR. They also produce a much higher specified system that provides much better runout accuracy but it is still not zero.
Letâs keep the conversation civil
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