I’m almost ready to buy the PwnCNC conversion kit for my Onefinity (1F) Journeyman. My projects are clock dials (brass engraving), and bas reliefs in hardwoods (furniture and clock cases). I’m primarily a woodworker, but I like what a CNC can add to that. I’m not a high-volume production shop nor a maker of the things people buy at craft fairs. My table saw and hand planes get 20x the use that my CNC does.
The biggest reason for the upgrade is the Masso controller (versus my Buildbotics for which firmware upgrades have permanently ended). The benefits of replacing the stepper motors are less clear to me, but I see the benefits of integrating the elements in the PwnCNC package. An ATC is a longtime “maybe” for me. I bought the 1F back when I thought I could gradually improve the machine as I learned what I’m doing. I’ve since learned more about company business methods.
Now PwnCNC sells the “Dominator”. Daniel’s videos mention rigidity which sounds great, but I can’t tell whether that would be sufficiently different for my work. I like my Mechatron spindle (water-cooled and with a ‘purge air’ port that keeps brass dust out of the bearings).
Given the projects I make, is it a wise to buy the Conversion Kit for a 1F, versus leaving the 1F world entirely? To those who’ve either installed the Kit or replaced a 1F with the Dominator, is the difference in cost supported by differences in project results?
Do you currently have closed loop stepper motors? I consider the closed loop steppers to be a very useful insurance policy. My setup is a OneFinity Elite Woodworker with the PwnCNC ATC spindle (water cooled). I appreciate the ATC more and more as I don’t hesitate at all when adding tools to my projects. For example, before having the ATC I would use the same tool for roughing and finishing, now I select a tool optimized for each use case.
As for changing out your rails, I’m wondering if you can spot issues in your current machines finish that you can attribute to your current rails? Especially with your brass work, do the surfaces show signs of machine rigidity issues?
For me personally upgrading to masso was a no brainer.
It was a no brainer due to the unlimited possibility of inputs/outputs. I’ve always wanted a dry run laser, and i have one now. If my coolant gets too warm or it isn’t on, an alarm goes off. My tower light has green, yellow, red and is audible so i hear it in the shop while doing something else. These are just a few of the benefits.
The closed loop motors are a nice feature where if it encounters a movement it can’t complete, it’ll error out. This was a problem i had on my shapeoko where it would keep going.
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I agree with both Chris and Eric (which is why I’ve almost made the upgrade purchase). The question before making this partial improvement is whether it’s a mistake to simply improve the Onefinity, rather than replace the gantry as well.
I don’t think I can tell what a rigidity issue looks like. I certainly don’t see chatter. I broke a whole lot of bits with brass cutting, but that’s a less-practiced application for “hobbyist” CNCs. The breakage might be more about feeds and speeds than rigidity. I read that rigidity factors into toolpaths that push the limits on those. My projects don’t have to be done quickly.
One PwnCNC video suggested that a person could install the Conversion Kit and later upgrade the gantry. If so, the decision is easier for me.
Changing the subject (slightly): someday, when my spindle needs to be replaced, I would prefer an American manufacturer. Some weeks ago PwnCNC replied to my forum question with a request for photos of my “purge air” port. I haven’t heard whether they thought that would be a practical feature to offer on their own spindles. Before adding it, I thought my dust collector was sufficient because I saw virtually no dust or brass on the project or table. But the damage to my spindle was severe by the fourth brass project. I suspect that’s also a factor for people machining wood, though less severe.
David. I replaced my 1finity Elite Foreman with a Dominator Pro, ATC, and added all the rigidity upgrades. The two really do not compare. The Dominator is built like a tank. I believe, even without the the legs kit and other rigidity upgrades it is still a tank when you build the proper table for it. So far the only thing about the Dominator Pro I am not happy with is that the Max feed rate on XY&Z is only 200 ipm. I definitely have seen better results. For a first release, Daniel has built a fantastic CNC.
Chris. Originally I also suspected that these were conservative. Just like what 1finity said when they changed their max speeds after an influencer compared the 1finity to the Altmil. But after talking with Daniel about the Dominators speeds and why they are set that way, I am very reluctant to change any of it.
The most important fact I got from this conversation was “Precision”. The Dominator Pro uses 1605 ball screws. The pitch of these screws is what I believe is responsible for the limited speeds. There are many things I do with my machine where it would be helpful to have faster speeds. But there are also many things I do where I do not need them.
I was told that he plans to investigate upgrading the ball screws to 2010’s which he hopes will maintain the Precision but double the speed. With so many new things happening at PwnCNC right now, I do not see it happening any time soon. So far the the max speed is the only thing I have found that I would love to see corrected. Hopefully sooner than later. Even with this limitation the Pro is a very good CNC.
Not trying to discredit Daniel by any means as he is far more in the weeds on this than i am, but a 1605 ball screws max rpm is 16,000. Masso motors have a max of 3000 rpm. At 5mm a rotation that’s 15,000 mm/min. Since the motors are capable of 1/5th the rotations (whip aside), a motor fault would be first to give, but they just won’t give any more.
Convert all that to freedom units and i get 590ipm.
Of course save a back up file before changing anything but i believe there room to improve upon as far as the max feedrate of 200 ipm.
Thank you Chris for this explanation. You have giving me a subject I intend to explore to gain a better understanding of.
When Daniel explained to me the reasons the settings were made, I did research it as much as I could. I learned a great deal. I eventually just accepted the fact that I clearly did not have the training or knowledge to want to change any of the settings. Especially on a new CNC. I picked PwnCNC’s Dominator because of the Masso and the confidence I had in Daniel’ knowledge of the Masso. That and I was very happy with the PwnCNC spindle I had on the Elite Foreman.
I had thought about posting more details from the emails Daniel and I had about the subject in order to better explain what I believe he was trying to help me understand. But I think that it would better for him to explain it since he is clearly the expert here. I am just an end user that is willing to do the research to gain the most knowledge possible about my equipment.
I have learned a lot from this Forum. You have done a great job with it and I very much appreciate the contribution you make.
That’s not a bad thing or bad frame of mind… but then there’s the flip side of the coin where you analyze the research you’ve done to hypothesizing what’s the worst that could happen, then making incremental changes.
I wish i had a dominator because then i would be the one saying “hold my sippy cup” while experimenting. i would have a target of 400ipm and acceleration of like 30 which i believe is conservatively fast. I would increment them 10% at a time, then when steps get lost back up 25% or so.
At the end of the day though, 200ipm is probably good enough as it’s only the rapids that are effected since the number of bits that exceed that speed is few and far between. I have one (3 flute upcut endmill [amana #46002]) that is 270ipm.
Pic of motor issues with going too fast from the website previously above. I highly doubt the frame & ball screws ect are the weak point again whip aside.
Let’s talk more about ‘rigidity’. The word describes a useful feature but it’s affected by lots of factors…probably including the surface on which the machine rests, the material it’s made of, and the length of the arms that can deflect from a straight line running between their ends.
My priorities might be off, but I put a lot of effort into a cabinet base. It’s a 49x79 torsion box on an oak-faced 3/4” plywood cabinet. There are casters, but I lock them when in use. It weighs about 300 lbs, but it’s not metal (like Dominator’s frame and legs).
1. It appears the Dominator Pro is sold with legs separately. Does that mean it can rest on my table instead?
2. Would using my table take away the rigidity that Dominator is intended to add?
3. Dominator Pro isn’t offered at 3x4, but that one has a footprint to fit my table. I don’t need the 8” of Z-travel, but I’d want the other “Pro” advantages, including its ball screws. PwnCNC’s site describes upgrading the Core with larger Steppers and preparing the Masso for an ATC. Can I actually upgrade to a Pro in a 3x4 dimension?
The next question about rigidity is the benefit it brings. My projects are moldings in hardwoods and brass clock dials. I don’t ask the machine to move at high speeds, with most projects at 100 ipm or less. Granting that the Onefinity isn’t as rigid as a Dominator:
4. How much less rigid is a Journeyman? Do we compare that with distance of deflection? Is it a lower number with a smaller machine (2x4 Dominator vs. 4x4, or Journeyman vs. 4x4 Dominator)?
5. Which uses for a CNC are performed better with a machine that is more rigid?
Based on my experience with shapeoko, i would entertain the bed regidity upgrade Dominator Pro - Bed Rigidity Upgrade – PwnCNC
The machine can be rigid, but if your surface isn’t… well, it’s all for not.
Depends on your craftsmanship. Mine ain’t great, and i end up shimming alot and right angles, well aren’t. The fact it’s on wheels will prone it to some vibration vs sitting flat on the floor… even with them being locked (depending on the slop of the casters). With them locked grab your table and give it some violent shakes to see what you’re dealing with.
That’s a question best answered by emailing support@pwncnc.com, and really these are all good questions for them… I’m just spitballing based on observations mostly, not experience.
I can tell you 8" of travel is a key benefit, as it’s a combination of material thickness, bit length and spindle height. The high travel allowance allows you to have a long bit, high spindle and thick material with room to clear for clamps but still reach the surface with a short bit.
That will require precision measuring equipment and the machines in question, and don’t know if any test has been done.
Precision, speed and day to day manufacturing. Compare it to bobs cnc (a machine made of plywood) if you were to violently shake it, it might break apart. If Daniel can sit on the gantry as a demonstration you could probably violently shake it and get nothing other than the machine moving as a unit.
More mass and bulky parts are a good thing… that’s why $60k+ machines are huge and have seemingly oversized parts.
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I can tell you from experience that official Onefinity support isn’t nearly as helpful and as a former pwncnc support member i would go out of my way to be helpful
Yep, Chris. I wonder whether 1F realizes the cost of some of their decisions. If two machines seem equal, but questions about the integrity of one seller exist there’s a financial impact. I did send my questions to pwncnc support, but they haven’t yet had time to reply.
About Z-height: Dominator Core has 6.5” and Pro has 8”. 1F’s Z-height is 6.5”. While I would prefer all the benefits of the Pro, I don’t want to reduce to 2x4 if I can make 3x4 work. (3x4 being the only size they don’t offer in the Pro configuration).
I also looked at Reddit and made up some AI queries about rigidity. AI may be dumb computers, but they sift through published reports by smart people more quickly than I can. I gather that Dominator and 1F rigidity hasn’t been compared by anybody with credibility in that science. However deflections are worse in a Journeyman than 1F’s smaller machine, and different in the center of the XY axes than at the edges (where the brackets are). Journeyman (in one report) deflected by as much as 0.08”. That’s a “static” measure, meaning that it’s how much a non-moving head’s weight affects the tubes. “Dynamic” measures will be much more useful, but more complicated.
If rigidity is a frequently-cited advantage for Dominator, the company should consider getting that kind of data and reporting it. Even if they have to admit that XYZ company’s $20K machine has a few thousandths better results, a buyer knows what choices they’re making when reconciling the technical specs with the costs.
I agree, that would be good to get quantifiable 3rd party verification/validation, but i was a fact finder on a similar project, spindles torque.
I must have contacted at least 2 dozen companies and only found one that was willing and able to conduct the tests… but their machine was down for remodeling… and it was in Germany. For one reason or another the project was abandoned because the remodel wasn’t projected to be completed until after i left. I don’t want to theorize the reason it was abandoned but i suspect the company i contacted changed their mind.
The weekends it does slow down, can’t all work 7x12’s
Hopefully they’ll get you a definitive answer soon
